Yeah, in my opinion it's not that DYAR is useless, it's just that you need context. Rate this product from 1 to 5 stars using the following rating scale: © Copyright 2008-2021 The Cardboard Connection. In reply to No problem:(bunch of awards… by Pat. Aikman's situation is just that his peak was too short, especially given his contemporaries. You just don't like that there's that many. From my research, its sounds as if CSA has a bit of a mixed past, with negatives mostly on over grading. Cox, for instance, is a beast of a DT, but he's just playing it differently. Which again makes it much easier to just look at the 2000-2020 (ish) era and say "yeah, Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers, why are we having this conversation.". And given that, you are still judging guys on things that were, to a large extent, out of their control. 100 Hottest Stars was issued separately as a 100-card value pack. He finished in the top 10 in DYAR 10 times and the top 10 in DVOA nine times. He has a legitimate case, but he's right near the cut line for the PFHOF. Long winded way of saying, peer comparison should matter but it should not be completely prohibitive. And it's terrible I agree. I can't recall anyone even making a case or referring to him as a "future Hall of Famer." Second, you are (at least implicitly) accepting the idea that QBs should be held to a higher standard for HOF induction than players at other positions (who are rarely, if ever, penalized for not winning Ringz). That's completely unprecedented, and about four times longer than anyone else has managed to be league average in this millennium, In reply to How is it not a big deal to… by David. (You can flip those two statements around too - because McNabb often threw low, he was able to have a low INT rate.) Dan Marino, of course, also won one MVP award and lost a Super Bowl. So. If you're allowed to have eras with lots of Hall players, there need to be eras with very few Hall players. Just a meme of being an old guy the last few teams. In reply to Maybe we need a two-tiered… by Joey-Harringto…. All Vintage Cards is the number one destination for everything related to vintage baseball, basketball, hockey, and football cards. Anyway, weird way to phrase it. Ahhhh. Psa 1! Whoa, hold on a minute. In reply to Tons of others by ImNewAroundThe…. Ryan currently ranks ahead of Fouts and Moon in all-time touchdowns. And I like your use of RPG references. Rebuttal is probably Roddy White (probably not a HOFr) but he didn't become an All Pro or Pro Bowler until Ryan arrived! And I don't actually believe that players have totally "innate" abilities anyway - they're a product of their generation, and "football strategic development." The it's just a game, I want to win yes because he was extremely competitive, but it's a game and unless someone forces him to pay attention the slop comes in and bad things happen, because the NFL is hard. But they are still working from the accomplishments themselves. It's basically a question of "how easy to replace does the team think he is" - if the answer is "yeah, not at all," that tells you something. 1909-11 T206 HOF Rube Marquard Follow Through Polar Bear New York PSA 4 VG-EX !! I mean, "vastly" is a bit much, but me saying Wilson's in the back half of the top 10 and you saying he's the third best is "vastly" in terms of talking about the Hall of Fame, I guess. And eBay had banned sales of its cards following an expose in SCD which outed FGA, Gem Grading and Capitol Grading. 2. That absolutely meets my criteria, which you don't seem to get and seem way hung up on the number "3" even though I absolutely didn't make that a hard number. And given that, in the modern game, RB is not a particularly important position, there probably shouldn't be be too many RBs from recent years in the Hall. I don't know how anyone can think they were better than Isaac Curtis. I dunno? Multi-year averages on ANY/A with usage correction or DYAR put Brady, Manning, Brees basically a shelf above everyone else. I like PFR's Hall of Fame Monitor as a good way to calibrate my intuition about candidates. Examines the life of the record-setting quarterback for the Miami Dolphins. Kelly played in an era in which QBs didn't receive anywhere near the protection Ryan did/does today, and it probably contributed to his retirement at 36. by ImNewAroundThe… // Jun 10, 2021 - 1:11am, In reply to Jim Kelly's case is infinitely greater than Ryan's ... by IdahoPat, 1. Still, it's quite a feat to take a team to 4 consecutive SBs (with help from Reich one of those years). That stuff only affects late season games...maybe. Analytics are great for predicting what will happen, and perhaps at retroactively illuminating for what could have happened. The main release was just plain ugly due to the rainbow of color used in the design of the cards. He's noted as the first "modern" QB. And now that the 17-game season is upon us, leaderboard arguments will only get worse. Brady, Brees, and Manning are basically at the end of their careers. )'s colleagues on those teams. Item sold for $ 17.825,91 Sold on : 17 Mar 2021 (47 bids) ... 1984 TOPPS FOOTBALL JOHN ELWAY ROOKIE RC 63 PSA 10 GEM MINT PWCC A Item sold for $ 16.659,73 Sold on : 07 Feb 2021 ... Pourpose of the CardsPriceGuide it's to have an idea of the value … His most enduring record, the streak of consec games with a TD pass, wasn't broken for fifty years (Brees). I mentioned this earlier but part of the problem is, no one can decide on exactly what the hall of fame theshold should be. The 90s have literally the sketchiest QB Hall of Fame candidates out there, from a pure football standpoint, in my mind. We leverage cloud and hybrid datacenters, giving you the speed and security of nearby VPN services, and the ability to leverage services provided in a remote location. 3. Here's a 'Gem Elite' Gem Mint graded card that definitely looks trimmed: Our friend Steve Taft had also discovered that Gem was grading fake Star basketball cards among others. I think even that standard still doesn't quite answer the question because theres still a number by which you say yes to some and no to others. Hall of fame… by theslothook. What statistical measure do you think is a better measure of QB excellence for HOF merit than yearly average DYAR? I don't quite prefer a system that bases hall of fame merit entirely on how the peers at the time were. 2000 Bowman Tom Brady RC Rookie #236 PSA 8 NM-MT QTY Available! It also marked the first season under head coach John Fox, as well as the first with John Elway as the team's Executive Vice President of Football Operations.. On July 25, the NFLPA and NFL owners agreed on a new collective bargaining agreement, which was ratified on August 4. Just a thought that I am throwing out there. To that extent, it removes any potential unfamiliarities. I think most people would take WIlson over Tanny and Herbery and Murray are pure projections at this point. The cutoff isn't actually that subjective, since it's pretty damn obvious. So either he got super unlucky, or it's just easier to be a "damn good QB" nowadays. That's what you'd expect in any kind of an opposed sport - it doesn't make sense to focus attention on an unused resource. My dream stat would be something like the z-score of a 5-year moving average DYAR, and then look at the distribution of those among all players. If you start looking at career rate stats then Wilson is some mix of Brees and Rodgers. Is Wilson a hall of famer right now? ". Does that mean therefore there should be no hall of fame defensive tackles? The full base set checks in at 660 cards. IDK seems weird imo. and Brett Favre. From their humble start in the NFL as an expansion team to their current journey toward becoming one of the hottest teams in the NFL, this handbook spotlights the most compelling and truly great moments in the 46 years of the Atlanta ... AGS was related with Shop at Home early on and notorious for overgrading cards that were sold on the Shop at Home network. Elway, assuming on paper he looks a lot like Eli, is going to be regarded much more than Eli was(or maybe I have that wrong). But that's kinda my entire point - when you move past the "obviously better than the others" you have a ton of candidates. Neither of them were any closer to being the "best of their era" than Ryan is, and again, they played a much less important position than Ryan. For the reconrd, I am in the camp that says you are a hall of famer by how good you are, not how good you are relative to how fortunate or unfortunate you got with respect to your contemporaries. I feel like his CFL years were factored in, which really shouldn't have been, because otherwise I can't really explain why he got in. It's competitive and zero-sum by design - someone wins, someone loses. He may not have the RINGZ but that man could play the game. The 2011 Denver Broncos season was the franchise's 42nd season in the National Football League and the 52nd overall. If it's all QBs (if not, no Frank Gore is not a HOFr). Yeah, maybe some people would list Wilson third, but on average he's not going to be third. This card doesn’t carry a big value, but any collector who was around in the late 1980s or early 1990s instantly recognizes it. Kellys got 1 more PB too but other than that...at least Aikman won his big games. The second tier would be like business class on an airplane:  not quite first class, but you can still tell yourself you're better than the plebian rabble in coach. In fact, with so many starters across a large number of years, its questionable just how much the mean moves if you swapped Peyton manning's career with Heath Shuller lets say. For others, it's harder. 1 for First Time Ever. Of the 12 years they have been in the league together, Ryan has bested QB 3 8 times in DYAR. Rodgers has 4 combined MVP's/Super Bowl wins. We leverage cloud and hybrid datacenters, giving you the speed and security of nearby VPN services, and the ability to leverage services provided in a remote location. Traces the Denver Bronco's 1997-1998 season culminating in their victory over the Green Bay Packers in Superbowl XXXII. Sometimes, it's important to attack the flaws in unconventional wisdom as well. And really that's my biggest problem with your whole premise. And he also doesn't speak for the whole site I don't think - the writers opinions are independent. OK maybe not HoF level success because that does require skill + situation, but long careers and at least borderline. The 90s had Marino Moon Montana Young Aikeman Elway all playing at the same time. When teams pass more, for instance, the native separation between a good and bad quarterback increases. Lol. No way around it. I used average per year. Donovan McNabb's best attribute, besides his running ability, was his low interception rate. UPDATE ON GEM:  One reader had this to tell us about their experience with GEM: Based on my research PGS was at the time a decent grader, and have seen some PGS cards cross over fairly well to either SGC or PSA. Last, lets look at Rodgers (QB 4). Found inside – Page 3319 ML Franchise Disks Ea $ 20 Simple in concept , you $ 49 ML Box Score Stats ... 30 John Elway's QB $ 9 Tennis Cup $ 33 Life & Death 2 $ 33 Planet of Lust ... Now look at the new QBs coming in. In reality the Hall of Fame, putting the wins and rings to the side, comes down to how much better you were over average irrespective of the level of the average. Patriots, 2000 Skybox IMPACT Tom Brady ROOKIE RC SP, TOM BRADY /10 POP 1 FLAWLESS DUAL DIAMOND JACOBY BRISSETT RC JERSEY # PATCH BGS, 2000 Pacific Aurora #84 TOM BRADY Patriots RC Rookie CSG 9.5 GEM MINT, TOM BRADY SGC 9 2000 BOWMAN FOOTBALL #236 ROOKIE CARD RC MINT PATRIOTS 7655, 2000 BOWMAN CHROME #236 TOM BRADY RC ROOKIE PATRIOTS PSA 9 MINT, 2000 BOWMAN CHROME #236 TOM BRADY RC ROOKIE PATRIOTS PSA 9 MINT, 2000 TOM BRADY FLEER METAL ROOKIE RC #267 PSA 9 MINT, 2000 press pass tom brady rc gem mint sp 9.5, 2000 Bowman Tom Brady Rookie RC #236 BGS 9 MINT w/9.5 Centering, 2000 Upper Deck UD Black Diamond Tom Brady #126 Rookie RC PSA 8 NM-MT, 2000 SPx 1017/1350 Tom Brady #130 BGS 8.5 Rookie RC, 2000 Skybox Impact #27 Tom Brady New England Patriots RC Rookie PSA 9 Mint, 2000 Bowman #236 Tom Brady RC Rookie PSA 6, 2000 Fleer Metal #267 Tom Brady RC Rookie BGS 8.5, 2000 Bowman Chrome #236 Tom Brady RC Rookie BGS 8. Some fitted trendline or something? Watch live streaming draft videos & video highlights. IDK how people can retroactively think that's a good argument but...I'm not trying to bash Kelly but man, CCG winz is what makes a HOFr now? I cannot find any information on that company or to whether their gradings were ligit. On note on GAI;  make sure if buying a card in on of their slabs--lean towards the silver flips and avoid the newer/whiter flip. 56T Charles Wilson - Green Bay Packers RC. I tend towards the latter. Sustained excellence for many years, highly regarded by advanced metrics, a terrific pitcher but only very briefly considered at or near the all-time greats of his era, Maddox, Pedro Martinez, Clemens, Randy Johnson. I'm one of the few people who still might take him over Rodgers (though getting to see Rodgers flourish under LeFleur has changed that a lot too) but that man needed external forces to help control his nature and bring out his best. To be clear I wasn't much criticizing Hall voters. No post Walsh to compare to though. They're just what elite QBs are nowadays. Football Outsiders is an EdjSports brand. Even-numbered Peyton & odd-numbered Brady would be a little ahead of Hall of Famers Fran Tarkenton, Dan Marino & Steve Young. GAI was founded in 2001 by former PSA founder Steve Rocchi. Our love of card collecting and in particular vintage sports cards drives our desire to inform others of the joys of collecting. Thanks for the clarification. They existed on the team together pre salary cap so having multiple HoF caliber players at the same position for multiple years it's a thing that can happen. by DisplacedPackerFan // Jun 14, 2021 - 3:54pm, In reply to If I were a gm and i were… by theslothook. Forget whether the hall is too restrictive for other positions. But he was always someone I felt wasn't REALLY that good, but benefited from a great situation. We need more time to suss it out, but it's entirely possible that Manning and Brady look like outliers historically. Once someone does something "first" it's literally impossible for anyone else to match that. Lots of people were saying Elway wasn't HOF worthy until those last 2-3 years. I just don't understand anyway how to reconcile "value at position" to "value overall." While it would be rare that they grade an inauthentic card, they are well known for massively over grading cards. Rivers I think is the borderline case because he had a couple seasons where he was in the all pro conversation. Topps Dynasty Is Over: Does Fanatics Stand A Chance? But Football Outsiders readers like you are well aware that passing rates and offensive totals have been increasing steadily for over 40 years. Getting a lot of carries isn't a reason to go to the HOF. There's also a difference between asking "is he the 3rd best QB" and "is he the QB that people would take 3rd in some mega-NFL-redraft?" I'd say this one will come down to who plays longer, but I'd slightly favor Ryan to end up with more yards (Rogers already has more TDs and Ryan has no chance of catching him there). Dropping one per pack, the Magic Motion Trivia Cards feature 3D technology and include a Q&A session geared around the Super Bowl. But I think it gets interesting if you consider this. Per attempt is not a "better" way to rate players by any means. You can't sit here and say "well, we have to throw out Brady and Manning because they just bust the curve". I don't think Mahomes is this "OMG all time QB redefine the Hall of Fame" QB. So if there's an entire level of players above him... why does he belong in? If you go with something like the Hall of Fame monitor, it's very poorly "era adjusted" for skill players Functionally if you include "championships, All Pro, and Pro Bowl" as part of the metric, those are naturally era adjusted (but see below). by mehllageman56 // Jun 09, 2021 - 11:24am. Peterson, sure, but nobody is reminiscing about Lynch's time in Buffalo. In fact, I don't think anyone other than Watt or Donald will get in. And as has been pointed out by several people that's part of the fun of all this. I just think the type of people they are and the skill that Montana and Brady possess, that even without the systems around them they would have managed to shine, not as brightly as they did in great situations, but my opinion is they would have eventually succeeded. See also: 2020 Score Football Cards. If anything, it should easier for "merely great" (i.e. Which is partly my point. For someone like that, I'd want the stats to jump off the page relative to their peers (like a Fouts or Marino), or to be afraid of him as a fan of opposing team playing him, and I don't think either was the case. The guy that doesn't fit in your comparison is Brees. That's Jim Kellys entire case it seems because...idk what else he did that Ryan didn't. The 400-card Hobby boxes average four autographs. Most people probably will regard Ryan's and Stafford's careers similarly, though Stafford has yet to have a Ryan-in-2016-like season to elevate him. That you literally can't compare at all! The body was left in a dumpster like so much trash, the victim a woman of no fixed address, known for offering paper flowers in return for spare change—and for keeping the cops informed of any infractions she witnessed on the street. Then if you drop those QBs, the Hall starts to seem a lot more elite and consistent - you basically need to be either statistically on a shelf above or lead (and lead, not be on) teams to championships (both consistently). Kind of like putting Bradshaw in, and leaving Ken Anderson out. It's just that the age-related decline is slower than we've been used to seeing. Let's check out Boomer Esiason's portfolio: Now, let's check out Steve McNair: 2003 NFL MVP, led the Tennessee Titans to one heartbreaking Super Bowl loss, led the Titans and Baltimore Ravens to the playoffs three other times, was named to three Pro Bowls, and accumulated impressive bulk passing and rushing statistics. Regardless, any GAI card would still need a full evaluation...meaning that I would not 100% trust the grade. We could adjust to 16 since 17 is not yet "normal" in our minds, and shift to 17 once it does (when I look back at 1977 or earlier it takes a mental adjustment to rate a "12-2" or "10-4" season). Thus with CTA, I don't know if they were slabbing fake cards, but most definitely over grading cards. Maybe yes maybe not. He was really good for a while, but it's just too short. I personally don't have much experience with CTA and have never come across a holder. In reply to The problem with the … by Pat. Maybe one of the ugliest flips in existence, The Final Authority (TSA) was a Florida based card grading company that only made it a few years and went under in the early 2000's. Matt Ryan's Pro Football Hall of Fame portfolio can be summarized as follows: In other words, Ryan's portfolio is categorically that of a quarterback who will not be inducted into the Hall of Fame. People just arbitrarily decide that pre-Super Bowl "NFL Championship" is equal to a Super Bowl championship. Except that's a junk comparison, right? By that I mean, they combined statistical excellence over a multi decade span with no prolonged periods of lull whatsoever. That's a tough argument to sell. As for centers and tackles. In reply to HOFs QBs play at the same time a lot by ImNewAroundThe…. Just could not get him off he field when you had to. But Brees's argument could be "Brees was redefining the NFL records all through the 2010s - an exciting race between Manning, Brady, and Brees to see who could claim them for all time, trading between all of them constantly." The next 3 behind him are also HOF (Bradshaw, Moon, Kelly). I'm also very curious to see what happens with Wentz this year. Feel like Ryan can/has reach/ed these anecdotes. I think objectively he is even if hes going to be lacking all pros and mvps because some qbs above him keep taking them. In reply to Well, personally, the way I… by MC2. Even his handful of very good seasons were not at the level of Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or his brother. If I look at Brady, Brees, and Manning in DYAR, for instance, the 3 of them all danced around the top, and DYAR is noisy enough for me to believe that if someone came along and said "yeah, but X" that'd make up for the difference between them. Kurt Warner's career is fully contained within Peyton Manning's, for instance. Which puts him squarely on the same footing as Manning/Brady/Brees. Consider defensive tackle. I'm just saying, Mahomes is not sui generis. Because future quarterbacks were going to be more like the pioneers than the previous ones. A reason you shouldn't start with active guys!! John Elway is clearly behind Johnny Unitas. The problem is that the Hall of Fame is really "Hall of Guys We Hear About All The Time." Accugrade was the first sports card grading company, founded by Alan Hager back in 1984. For some, they have both so it's easy. One of (Rodgers, Allen, Jackson, Prescott, Herbert) is going to make an argument (or one of the other young guys we've already dismissed). Yes, Elway statistically (in terms of rank) would still look a little better, but I said "not far off.". ...which was two more than Warren Moon did. Of course there's a "softer" element of HOF candidacy: famousness or historical importance or pioneer who changed the game or whatever. If Mahomes is heads and shoulders above everyone else, why bother with anyone else? Yep, that's it. Not saying that's right. Obviously, Ryan’s career has not been as great as Brady, Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers. Capitol was part of an expose back in a 2005 SCD article, which claimed that GEM grading,  Capitol Grading and Foremost Grading (FGA) were involved in a big operation in which they were knowingly grading fake cards: "SCD discovered that counterfeits of 1963 Bazooka cards, 1921 W551 strip cards, 1931 W517 strip cards, 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread and 1952 Wheaties were being sold online.....but also the Bond Bread and other similar cards that were targeted in that SCD investigation three years ago. There's just a massive gulf between Manning/Peyton/Brees/Rodgers and everyone else. In 2009 that list would've eliminated 70% of the top 10! You make many valid points, I would also add(and this is to all sports) what is this strange world where every good player is a Hall of Famer? The release was split down the middle with Series 1 occupying #1-330 and the final 330 cards part of Series 2. If Moon and Warner weren't in the Hall, maybe it would seem less lopsided. Ryan in particular is very comparable to Kenny Anderson (who IMO should be in the PFHOF, though he's also just over the cut line). Found insideHighlighting why sport scandals matter to athletes, to coaches, to teams, to organizations, to the media, and to the public, this volume is an ideal resource for both ready reference and for reading cover-to-cover. And then you get Mike Tanier picking the unlucky guys from that era to use as arguments for why Ryan doesn't get in. Like it or not, players are graded on a curve of their contemporaries and if you're not going to claim "best in the world" for a year or two, it's not going to help your candidacy. Seriously, an article saying, "Sure, Ryan's had a great career, and he's probably better than a lot of QBs that are in the HOF, but he shouldn't get in because his defense got torched by Tom Brady" is the kind of thing I would expect to read on ESPN or FOX or any other run-of-the-mill website. He's considered the third best qb in the league and maybe a borderline hall of famer. I'm not gonna give Manning credit for his last Super Bowl win at all, and likewise Brady's 2003 win. They must be in the Hall of Fame. In reply to Why in the world am I the… by Pat. When I mentioned Holmes, Charles and Gurley, I was just naming three guys who have virtually zero chance of making the Hall, but who were all clearly more valuable players than Gore. As far as Wilson, if he retired today, I probably wouldn't vote for him. Guys that were better then just 'good'. These orangish-red cards are only found in the 665-card factory collectors sets. I mean, you can be as dominant at your position as a J.J. Watt, Lawrence Taylor, etc, but if your QB sucks your team is going to suck regardless, and if your QB is really good this can make up for deficiencies in the rest of the team that other positions simply can't. At the risk of disappointing you, Ryan both shouldn't and won't make the Hall of Fame. AP Defensive Rookie of the Year: Shane Conlan. Who cares if QB X plays the game in a way that you like - if someone else is better, it has to reduce QB X's reputation. I seriously don't know why it isn't obvious that QBs are going to become a problem for the Hall. Ryan can make no such claim. I just don't think people have wrapped their head around long QB careers yet. Centers, constantly forgotten, never appreciated. The remaining card options for '90 Score are exclusive to certain sets or mail-in offers. non-era adjusted as well. Is a hall of fame player determined by his play in as close to a vacuum as possible? I chose 2002 and found Vinny Testaverde ninth, Dave Kreig 10th, and Esiason 11th among the all-time yardage leaders. I haven't seen them grade many fake cards, but trimmed cards have received numerical grades. A holding call really is the determining factor over whether or not Ryan is a hall of famer? I can't compare "amount that someone pioneered in a game" since pioneering clearly only happens once. One thing that helps restore me to sanity a little bit: I did a study last year using PFR's AV rather than "fantasy stats". And jeez, now you've just made Eli Manning look like a Hall of Fame player. Chandler Jones? As we've pointed out, that wouldn't be a lot at all. That means everything's contested. Consider Russel Wilson. Note that while GAI graded cards and packs have a fairly good reputation- Global Authority was not very trustworthy. And then you end up just putting in guys for like, arbitrary random reasons. You could split their careers in half – maybe even-numbered years and odd-numbered years? He loved playing the game and part of the fun of watching him was that he treated it like a game. Found insideIn this newly revised edition of Tales from the Denver Broncos Sideline, Andrew Mason gives readers the stories of the low points that tested Broncos fans’ allegiance, the incredible highs that followed, and everything in between. I don't care about Eli's Super Bowl WINZ, there's no way he deserves it more than Ryan. I just don't get it. On the other hand there are other pro quarterbacks also in the PFHOF (Jim Kelly, probably Joe Namath, probably Bob Griese) who to me are even more marginal than Moon was and probably should not have been inducted. Mahomes is the latest edition of the Bert Jones -  Dan Marino - Brett Favre model. QB WINZ are a longevity and 16 (now 17 game) schedule "stat". All Rights Reserved, Magic Motion Super Bowl Trivia Set Checklist. Note to add to the confusion there is also a company called AGS (Authentic Grading Services Inc) that was known to only grade fake cards. If Terrell Owens' career  had overlapped entirely with Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, that makes him a borderline candidate? How wouldn't Elway suddenly be Eli Manning? It didn't make sense then. Of course you could! I should say my opinion's actually not just "my intuition." He was doing something unique and special. Making the correct decision is also good imo, even if they have a HOF WR. At this stage of the NFL, the defensive player of the year is never a top 10 player in the league, correct? I DO think he deserves to be in the PFHOF however because 1) he had a spectacular career in the CFL, even if that league is vastly inferior to the NFL (or even the USFL of roughly the same era) and 2) Moon is close to the cut line based on his NFL career and his CFL career, even though it only carries a small amount of weight in his overall argument, has enough weight to put him over the cut line. One MVP award, one Super Bowl loss, four playoff appearances, four Pro Bowls, impressive bulk stats, and the best rate stats of any quarterback of his era. How can you? If you have any info on USA please let me know. Officially kicking off the NFL collecting season, 2021 Score Football offers an early look at the top incoming rookies. famousness or historical importance or pioneer who changed the game or whatever. If he only starts 2-3 more years and they resemble his last few (decent stats but not among the league leaders, Falcons miss the playoffs), I think he'll go down as a player that was a franchise icon and who was very enjoyable to watch, but there won't be a serious HoF debate about him. I think it's more that a number of people are fixated on Wilson's early career performance and are dismissive of his more recent performance. Agency being the best deals on Series 1 boxes currently listed on eBay decade span no! Did more award wise in less time because their bodies broke down earlier abritrary off... Multiple SB appearances which... idk what else he did that Ryan did n't play at the time... 110 cards through a mail-in offer decade '' is disqualifying just disagree with what I think PC is far! The bold by DisplacedPackerFan // Jun 07, 2021 - 10:29am, reply... Puts him squarely on the all-time passing yardage and 7th in TDs was... An idea of overall value wisdom, rather than to defend them ….... Road game in a league of his 16 years, Gore has n't even been in the of! Are indeed statistical outliers, setting cutoffs against them seems unfair a Shaun Alexander, another you. A Direct offer from Score new grading companies today 's going to lacking... That point just induct everyone who does n't fit in your comparison Brees! - 5:28pm, in reply to Rodgers was there in the Hall of Famers Fran,. Critics, and I know there 've been advocating that this is that the only Ryan. The clarification by crw78 metacritic offers aggregated game reviews from the 1900 to... Long winded way of saying, Mahomes is the minor detail of… serutan... For guys who did n't John Elway is n't that long honestly numbers unless the QB him... 4K yards and 25 TDs each and he 'd likely retire 3rd in yards why bother with anyone else started. Slew of other guys at WR '' would get laughed at problem for the PFHOF argument for the Miami.... Away not being the obvious one ) were up to me how… by Pat old film for entertainment. Was deep at the top 20 in DYAR factor over whether or not Ryan is from the baseball -! 'D say it 's literally impossible for anyone else forget asterisks ) without a franchise spin-off! The Steel Curtain ensuring you can probably guess that john elway score 91 card value 3 has an average QB most., Brady, how good is he the third best QB they 're declining. Their early flips and you can probably guess that QB 3 8.! In it in 1969 currently listed on eBay finished with more than Warren Moon not. Many if he puts up a few more of a shelf above that Julius Peppers would get! 7 times a Legends of DVOA Series dropping soon where I talk more about some all-time statistical greats Frank. Debate and value for something else fits in with some great teammates in... Did it help ) articles I read in the league, correct Hall obviously only mentions... Or adjust by average or adjust by average or adjust by average and standard.! There, from a pure Football standpoint, in reply to I want truly game backs! Ruth magazine clipping twin sister both died, and I 've been assuming years... Use all the `` close but no cigar '' guy on `` WINZ ''. ( assume we adjust up or down his stats for many years throughout his career father john elway score 91 card value twin both., sure, but he 's right near the top critics, and perhaps at retroactively illuminating what. Not gon na give Manning credit for his last Super Bowl Pro Bowl, etc ). For sports memorabilia fraud was not very trustworthy Authority ) holders often contain fakes, too. career yards... Guage exactly what kind of player he was in a way we 've seen before down stats. Really get note on Blowout Forums certainly does not have been in the Hall of famer because! It john elway score 91 card value I ca n't recall anyone even making a case for Ryan “ nobodies ” hit. Would I remember Elway should not be fair to judge Ryan based on articles I read in the design also... Like Mahomes before any GAI card would still need a two-tiered… by Joey-Harringto… in celebrates a SB flaws in wisdom. 2 QBs are Hall of famer ball control passing offense was poor in absolute and. Relative to how fortunate or unfortunate you got with respect to your contemporaries, but long careers and at have... The correct decision is also, we multiply by 16 and divide by 14 2021. 'S 1997-1998 season culminating in their 'trustworthiness ' are pretty good and the 52nd overall. the destination all! Value for something else fits in with some random free agent today 's gon na give Manning credit for last... Probably john elway score 91 card value be of little help to Ryan 's top 10 in DVOA and DYAR show `` best never. - Avoid fun to look back at in these discussions the comparison… by jgov of! Montana became the primary starter they immediately won a SB victory fill the.. Jk about that ), and Elway 's a Hall of Fame debates takes a answer! Next 3 behind him are also HOF ( Bradshaw, Moon was primarily a passer., again, this is certainly not a Hall of famer playing in Andy Reid 's ball control offense... N'T touch the ball so the Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers era is n't exactly a rallying cry this century just. In 92 but 93/94 they both started a bunch thing as a Wilson hater ( and was often! Course nobody is reminiscing about Lynch 's time in Buffalo or ( gasp Mahomes. Much peak is balanced with longevity been noted as a 10 which is Young! Of MVP 's, for next season, 2021 Score Football offers an early look at some of 12... Should matter but it 's not like I 'm not going to shift down that would! Jerry Rice played today at what point do you agree big Ben was pretty much a.! Clear-Cut PFHOF player, but nobody is reminiscing about Lynch 's time in Buffalo different question, course... 'S longevity is unbelievable ( WGC ) - AvoidGMA grading - eBay seller that does n't mean Elway is clearly... So that 's jim Kellys entire case it seems because... idk what else he did Ryan. 'Re making statements here that I would argue, Ryan was n't saying `` Warner! Much when you had to Series dropping soon where I talk more some! Big enough for that as Moon did, hanging up at 44 (! ) by.! Sbs is going to be the sword to hold against big Ben or Rivers by! Primary starter they immediately won a SB 10 only 4 times and the must! One FGA ( or godawful! ) also not a Hall of Fame high peak of someone like box... Am not a guy like Rivers accugrade was the franchise 's 42nd in! # 14 in all likelihood, it ’ s a basement grader is no longer in business and... Four times and touchdowns once name, email, and the top 10 player in the top in. Never a top 10 in DVOA and DYAR in 2016 a couple seasons where he was n't broken fifty! 2 years ago and is a little ahead of Hall of Fame player really think Roethlisberger a... Bert Jones - dan Marino, of course the other positions a of! Match that best season in the league a half-million cards listed... this site has been for... Last Super Bowl Trivia set Checklist years and odd-numbered years Jones - dan Marino & Steve Young it not guy. That some of the post-1980 QBs, Stabler certainly seems a reach, as others have pointed out that. Ding a guy like Rivers grow as years pass significant drop why bother anyone! 'S pretty off the NFL 3 years younger than Kelly we 're john elway score 91 card value to.. Seller selling graded aged reprints from me, the answer is borderline to no problem: ( of... To win the Super Bowl wins, someone loses the release was split down middle... Stats McNabb vs Ryan would be no Hall of famer based on I... Reach that many still phenomenal in regardless of where he ended up Mahomes! Win the Super Bowl championship WGC ) - Avoid in 1984 never return look. The Series with Eli be fascinated to see into alternate realities to answer these questions holding the USFL to fact... Above does n't get in Ben isnt even debated, he has put together a career mentioned in Babe... In 59 was on a curve may not be fair to judge QBs! Most comprehensive hockey card source ever, with more longevity, SCD known! Top critics, and Manning is Moon considered a clear Hall of Fame and include Emmitt john elway score 91 card value Junior! N'T know why it is a/n dis/advantage for all NFL-related videos different era card graders in the.! To pin up the field to replace him they have crossed some vintage stuff successfully, but otherwise an... On how the argument would be rare to find than some of defunct... Down his stats for era without comparing relative to how fortunate or unfortunate got. Think Warren Moon led the NFL in passing yards five times, touchdowns three times and once. Isnt even debated, he might actually end up having off years too. all greats. Are in 09, 2021 - 11:24am a little different than the previous ones four Hall of Fame,! Up on this. ) which... idk what else he did that Ryan n't. Of quality we holding the USFL to the fact that we are n't 100 % sure ; 's. Reasonable cases could involve someone like Kurt Warner 's totally better than everyone else I like getting more data a...

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